I just want to make sure. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. I will take away their sins. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. Do you still have it? So probably honestly that one. Philosophy program at Talbot. Anything else you might disagree with? Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. Were going to be taking those questions. Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. Yeah, sounds good. Well, not necessarily. Born Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Steve Christie also has his own website. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. Type it in. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. So lets just stick to scripture. So my quick mini rebuttal. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. All right. Protestants disagree. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Okay, Trent. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. Okay. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. Back to top Alert abuse. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Jesus does not rebuke her. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. . This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. I thought about writing a book on-. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com He was preceded in death by both his parents. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. I mean, you got me on the spot. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. Thank you very much. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. Agreed. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Why would that be the case? With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. This is make or break time. Yeah. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. Well, of course not. But that is simply not the case. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Okay. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. . The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. The question for Joseph-. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. No, thats not the case. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Well, a lot to cover here. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. and so this may not satisfy Trents answer and he might smirk a little bit about that, but Id say probably the first theologian to agree with me is the Apostle Paul. It is not considered inspired. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. Good, because you know what? Good to hear from you again. - Fr. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. Yeah. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. Thank you, Steve. I agree with what that person teaches. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Trent mentioned about dying once. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Trent, did you want to-. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? All right. The same in any intellectual study. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. You got five minutes, right? G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. Yeah, sure. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Yeah. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. . He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Yeah. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. It doesnt even imply that. Okay. Okay. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Im running out of time. Thank you very much, Steve. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. The relevance would be that you are using it. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Can you repeat the question real quick? Check out our newest Lake Effect team. This is hard, isnt it? But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. We wouldnt expect it. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Okay. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Finally, as H.G.L. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. So again, argument by exception. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. How do we know this from the New Testament? That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. Nice to have you. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. 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